Sucks or Stinks?
I came across a Twitter conversation where people are debating whether or not the slang word “sucks” is inappropriate. Anyways, it got me thinking: who determines what is evil? Sure, the Bible is very clear on a lot of things that it deems evil (sex outside marriage, murder, lying, lusting after someone who isn’t your spouse, etc.), but what about those things that it doesn’t talk about?
When my grandmother was my age, “humbug” was just as bad as “bullshit”.
What about other things that, even within the church, spark arguments as to whether or not they are evil?
Music, video games, alcohol, tobacco, violent sports, movies, books, TV shows, etc.?
The one argument church people keep throwing at me is 1 Thessalonians 5:22 which some translations say to avoid every appearance of evil, while others leave it at avoid evil (click here for more on the translation differences).
But who is making the determination of what is or is not evil if the Bible is not explicit in the matter?
Some people deem Halo 3 to be evil because it simulates murder; others argue that because it is simulating war, the killings are no more murder than when an American soldier defends himself by killing an enemy soldier.
I actually heard one person say that “drinking is not a sin, but as Christians we are supposed to ‘Abstain from all appearance of evil’, so to drink would appear evil in the eyes of the world.”
WHAT?!?!?
So drinking alcohol is not a sin, but because the world (in this person’s eyes) sees it as evil, we shouldn’t do it?
It’s the same with language; the church doesn’t deem what is or is not appropriate – the world does.
Personally speaking, you won’t offend me by using cuss words in my presence, but at the same time, I view words like “idiot” and “loser” (used in a derogatory way) to be just as demeaning as “bitch” or “asshole”.
But that’s just me.
I could keep going with topics like music, movies, etc., but you get the point.
Any thoughts?
I've heard the: "it appears evil" thing before, and I guess I understand. Generic pastor walks into a room for "5 minutes" and you see a chick in there…45 minutes later what are YOU thinking?
Scripture says no unwholesome talk…and I "don't cuss" but I certainly fall into the category of unwholesome talk.
Thanks for the input.
For me, the real issue is what is unwholesome talk? It's not just a language issue, but it's also a subject matter issue. There are subjects I won't talk about and language I won't use in front of a six year old, but does that mean those things are unwholesome? That's why I believe childrens church, kidstuf, whatever you want to call it is a two-fold ministry – it should present the gospel to children in a way they can understand, but it also gives the adults a chance to be taught in a way that is appropriate for them, and sometimes that means brutal, blunt truth.
On the other end of the age spectrum, there are subjects I won't talk about and language I won't use in front of my grandmother; not out of shame, but because of the culture she grew up in there were just some things you didn't talk about. Period. Which brings me to this: I'm not going to blame the church in America for the divorce rate in America, but I do wonder if things might be better (at least in the church) if people received marriage counseling more often than just the weeks preceding their wedding and the weeks preceding their divorce. A perfect example would be my grandmother. She grew up in a church culture where the only time you talked about sex was when in reference to sin. And they never talked about marriage. People can accuse pastors like Ed Young and Mark Driscoll of being lewd all they want because they've done entire series on holy sexual relationships (inside marriage), but I have to wonder how my grandmother's life would be different had she been in a church where the pastor hadn't been ashamed to talk about marriage and sex as good things.
Fast forward to when I was growing up. I remember many times when my pastor would go on rants about the public schools teaching sex ed. as early as elementary school, yet now I look back and wonder how would my life, and my friends' lives be different had the church taken the opportunity to talk about sex from a Biblical perspective (and not just "premarital sex is sin, adultery is sin, homosexuality is sin") and also encouraged parents to have conversations with their children about sex, relationships and marriage.
Anyways, that's just me expanding upon things.
Well I believe you are right and wrong. I believe what is okay for some is not okay for others, and if others find it offensive we should not do it in front of them, nor should we look down on them for the lesser. Paul says, that one even doubts it is sin for them! As it is sin to judge another for doing something we view as sin…if you beliefs causes issues with another brother and sister in Christ and you persist you are no longer acting in love.
1 John 4:8 Amp Version, “He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love.”
Hebrews 13:1 Amp Version, “Let Love for your fellow believers continue and be a fixed practice with you [never let it fail].”
John 14:15 Amp Version, “If you [really] love Me, you will keep (obey) My commands.”
Everything in Christianity revolves around "LOVE". In things we say, do, worship, read, pray, fellowship, help, serve, etc it is all in Love or it is worthless.
Point is, might not be sin for you but you should do it in a way that would not cause a brother to stumble or fall. Persisting in that manner is not in Love and therefore not Christlike. If you actions or words causes another brother to stumble and fall away will his blood not be on your hands? Is there any difference between you then and a pastor who leads a flock astray? Does not Christ care for the 1 sheep as much as the masses? We should guard our speech carefully for we will be held accountable for every foolish word said.
Matthew 12:36-37
"But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
I probably should have made myself clearer. I wasn't implying that one should ignore the mores and values of their culture because of their personal beliefs. Nor should one ignore the weaknesses of those in their midst. My point was that instead of using scripture to determine our values, the church has used it's own traditions combined with the values of the culture around it. In addition, individual Christians have taken it upon themselves to use their personal convictions in showing others how to live. The result of all this is people are more concerned with what you're doing than who you're serving.
For example: I have no problem with drinking, as long as it is in moderation, and the Bible only condemns drunkenness. With that being said, when I choose to drink, I am aware of who I am with. If I'm with someone who is an alcoholic or is a recovering alcoholic, I won't drink out of respect for them. Even if they're okay with it and understand that I don't have the same struggle they have, I refuse to drink because I don't want to tempt them or cause them to stumble. But because I have this belief I am deemed an unrepentant sinner by many Christians, not because of scripture but because of tradition and personal convictions.
I don't know if that clears up any of the blanks I left in my original post.
Your example: Is an example of a problem. The fact that you listed it as an example could pose as a hindrance to others. Who cares what others deem you, your salvation is between you and God(Note: I know you don't care). These are careless words that could cause another to stumble and fall.
Yes debates are fun but we must be careful as to how deep we get or push of personal convictions or beliefs because of the lesser who might be reading. You mentioned yesterday you might have others looking up to you, following your blogs. What if something in here, your examples, etc become the very thing that pushes them over the line and they do not acquire the strength or faith not to fall? What if our words give someone the comfort of drinking but they do not have the strength to drink in moderation? Who is liable?
part 2 of response:
We are, not for just what we speak out loud but for what we write and publish for the world to see. We are accountable and if you say word like "suck", its meaning varies among different generations. I got in trouble by my grandma years ago for saying it because she said it meant oral sex! I didn't mean it that way but that is the only way she knew it! Her/My ignorance didn't change the fact that she didn't find it offensive and repulsive. Same goes for here…if you are amongst like minded individuals (who are not afraid of saying it bugs them) then speak however you would like, but be careful on what you say, condone, etc because people are listening.
part 3:
Another example: Let's say you and I are talking about drinking in the church hallway right before service has ended. No one is around that we know of but a 12 yr old is walking up behind us and we do not realize that he is standing there. He hears part of the conversations but just gets from our conversation that we condone drinking. We are both deacons and on the Tech Team and the kid knows this. Now when He is faced with drinking by friends he has to overcome what we said before he can make his decision. We are living like we never said anything to him to encourage him to say that and we are completely unaware that he even heard us.
That is my point and I feel the point Paul is trying to make. Just be aware that what we say or write can cause someone else to sin, effect the effectiveness of someone's ministry, etc.
sorry it has a huge char limit requiring me to post so many times…need to learn to shorten what I want to say.
I would also like to point out under my new found enlightenment. We should focus on Christ regardless of our belief on topics like these. As we grow in Christ these things will work itself out because the closer we grow towards Him the more He is reflected through us.
True, but that is where accountability comes in. Josh Wilson (former roommate) said it best: "America is a nation of gluttons." We don't know when to stop, and not just with alcohol. Eating is a prime example, yet you never hear anyone mention the fact that gluttony is just as bad as drunkenness according to the Bible. This sounds cliched, but Christianity is a journey and it's not meant to be traveled alone. That is why Paul told us to not forsake assembling together – it wasn't as much for instruction or worship (though those are great) as it was for accountability. As I said in the post, drinking isn't the only issue. Music, movies, books, TV shows, etc.; if we begin to live our lives according to the convictions or even weaknesses of others, we begin treading into legalism. But that is why I constantly try to reinforce the idea that people (whether reading this blog, eavesdropping on my conversations or talking with me directly) need to seek out answers from the Bible first. Men will change their opinions, beliefs, etc; the Bible does not change.
Yeah I see your point, but you can't be extreme the other way. We have a responsiblity too as much as others who hear or read. I disagree, if you want to watch a R rated movie or drink rum and coke that is up to you but you do not have to flaunt it from the rooftop or carelessly speaking about it infront of others. (Not implying you are)
I didn't say not to do the "controversial" things just be aware who you do it around and talk about it with. I feel that is a far cry from Legalism…not treading.
Accountability is very important and it should not be foresaken, I agree 100%! Though you have to remember we live in a lazy generation where people accept what they hear and fail to research and unfortunantly the majority will not do so.
I wouldn't call it a lazy generation, but a lazy culture. Only because I've seen this behavior out of young and old. I was accused the other day of not questioning things and researching, yet all my accuser does all day long is listen to talk radio and he believes whatever is being said by particular hosts.
What I meant by treading on legalism is there is always going to be someone watching/listening/reading. Does that mean that I live life constantly looking over my shoulder to see who is watching? Do I censor online presence? I hope I don't flaunt my lifestyle, but at the same time I do want to be remembered as someone who loved Jesus and loved life. The funny thing is, over the past few years I've had more problems with Christians than with unchurched/non-Christians. In fact, all of the negative reactions to my lifestyle choices have come from Christians. Anytime a non-Christian would ask "You're a Christian and you're………………?", it opened a door to a conversation about Jesus. In fact, some of my deepest conversations on Jesus and spiritual matters have been with non-Christians. And usually over a beer and cigar. And those conversations weren't always the easy ones (Jesus loves you); we're talking about the stuff that is difficult to talk about. Like Hell is real and sin is sin. Anyways, while I don't want to be a walking ad for Guinness or Metallica (e.g. flaunting), I don't ever want to get to the point to where I'm paranoid about what I should or shouldn't do.
Sort of on topic, but somewhat off topic, what worries me isn't someone openly talking about R rated movies and albums with warning labels in front of impressionable children. What worries me are the things that are marketed directly at children and pre-teens. Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is a perfect example; you can't turn on the TV without seeing a Burger King commercial advertising Transformers action figures and yet there is content in that movie that is definitely not suitable for children. And not just one or two scenes. Same thing with music these days. I was flipping through the radio the other day and the stations I came across were so lewd I went back to a Slipknot CD because the worst thing about it was the cussing.
<a linkindex="117" class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Romans%2014.1-23">Romans 14:1-23
You and I both take the bible as is, and for the most parts truths are there to find. Not talking about Rhema but Logos, and though Paul is speaking on meat, it applies to all facets of topics that might be sin to some but not to all.
That's why I love how Josh Wilson describes us as a "country of gluttons". Are there alcoholics in Europe? Of course, but Europe doesn't have the same problem America has with alcoholism. Same thing with diet. I don't know if it's because America is still a young nation when compared to nations in Europe being thousands of years old (but that is my personal theory), but it seems that we are much more gluttonous. The auto industry is a prime example. GM and Chrysler both file for bankruptcy and also receive government bailouts (and Ford may not be far behind), but the European auto companies, while experiencing some loss in business, are still trucking along.
As for what I post on Twitter (which ends up on Facebook and this blog), I never post anything with prideful or malicious intent, but I do think before I post. As far as how other perceive those posts, I'm not worried about it. The majority of the people I'm networked with don't take issue (many of them actually share my beliefs) and the few that do have mixed feelings are much like you. They're friends, and they know where my heart is. To add to what Mike was telling you about, I noticed while living in Atlanta that entire churches have been having their "religion/doctrine" rocked as you put it, so while there are still many "do & don't" people around, there are also many people who are having that veil removed. And it's in metro areas like Atlanta where the church is finally beginning to fulfill the great commission. I just wish it would trickle down into cities that aren't near a metro area. Here churches are still afraid to work together to reach the communities.
Funny thought: my last Scotch purchase came as a recommendation from a pastor I'm friends with. Not that I use that for justification, but it gives you an idea of the demographic that is reading my posts.
Arvil once told me something very important and that was that when I write something that is intended to shock or ruffle feathers, it's very likely that the people whom I'm trying to shock will never even read it. I liken it to cussing someone out when they cut you off in traffic. They'll never hear it.
"I hope I don't flaunt my lifestyle, but at the same time I do want to be remembered as someone who loved Jesus and loved life."
"I don't ever want to get to the point to where I'm paranoid about what I should or shouldn't do.”
If you believe the Bible is literal then just remember.
Matthew 12:35-37 & Romans 14:14-15
"If you believe the Bible is literal then just remember.
Matthew 12:35-37 & Romans 14:14-15"
I agree; my point was to know your surroundings and also be aware of what you say. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always taken Matthew 12:35 as correlating with Matthew 15:19, meaning that if you have junk in your life that you're holding onto, it will eventually rot and stink and everyone will know about that junk because they can "smell it". As for Matthew 12:36-37, again, maybe I'm too narrow in my thinking, but it seems to me to be saying watch what/how you say things. Not so much the exact language used, because even the original Greek got much more blunt than our English translations ever have; but moreso, just what you say to people and the tone you use. For example, my mother was telling me about someone at church that accused her during a meeting of not being a servant. I won't go into details so that I may protect that person's identity, but two days later that person apologized to my mother because someone else who was in that meeting told that person just how much my mother does for the choir, the womens' ministries and HOPI in general (not to mention serving her classes and parents at Shady Grove). Careless words, as verse 36 would say.
As for Romans 14:14-15, that's where I was going when talking about being paranoid. If I'm at a restaurant with someone whom I know is offended by the consumption of meat, I won't eat meat. I won't lie to them about my love of chicken, steak, pork, etc., but I won't purposefully offend them either. On the other hand, if I'm with someone who orders a steak, I'm not going to stop them and say, "Wait, we don't know who is watching. Let's make sure there are no vegetarians here before we eat." Same goes for alcohol, tobacco, guns, sports…… pretty much everything. The only way to not offend anyone is to become a monk and lock yourself away in a monastery.
"Sort of on topic, but somewhat off topic, what worries me isn't someone openly talking about R rated movies and albums with warning labels in front of impressionable children."
What is the difference between a company advertising a movie that has R rated label in front of impressionable children because of say shows a little too much skin or language and publicly stating I drink and cuss.
Skin in itself is not a bad thing when viewed and done in Marriage…why do parents and Christians not want their impressionable children to see that? Language, you might say well I do not see anything wrong with the words I say but some would say it doesn't bother them to let their kids watch something full of cussing and nudity. Where’s the line?
Honestly, the line is this: I'm not going to tell someone how to raise their children, but just as parents don't have to allow their children to watch R rated movies or listen to music with explicit lyrics, parents don't have to allow their children to read my site.
Now the difference would be that I am not promoting many of the things that those R rated movie trailers are promoting, but again, if parents actually did their job and knew what their kids were looking at online, then if their children came across my site their parents could discuss with them what they have read here.
What about those who do find it offensive? Those who try and protect their kids from hearing and seeing that kind of stuff by not allowing them to go see R rated movies. It sounds as if you have issues putting desires in kids to see things that are not suitable for them to watch but what are you doing when you as a Christian, fairly well know amongst your peers, one who holds influence over others, openly talk about the things you feel are okay? In a sense isn’t it the same things? You might say, majority of my readers is like minded or know my heart BUT this is the internet with metatags, links from my blog site, and other various ways people can run across you site. What about those who see that are not like minded?
Going back to the reply above this one, parents need to be parents. Not babysitters, not BFF's, but parents. Know what your kids are doing online. Know what sites they visit. If someone has to block my site to protect their children, so be it. As for the adults who read my site, if they are offended I pray they be offended because God is using what I wrote.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. Side note: excited to hear about you doing school! You have talked about it for several years. Sent from my BlackBerry
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That's okay; my goal with this post wasn't to convert anyone. Just to open the discussion.
I think the better question is; God spoke to me the other day, why as Christians find humor and entertainment in the very things that my Jesus, my King, died for? Finding entertainment in things that the Bible blatantly calls SIN, sex before marriage, lusting teens, crude behavior, vulgar speeches, using the Lords name in vain, witchcraft, homosexuality, drunkenness, drugs, etc! TV and movies are filled with it and we as Christians say, “I am not convicted of it” but what about 1Thessalonians 5:19-22?
I agree, but at the same time, there are many things that culture, not God, has deemed "evil".
Obviously, the things you named are deemed evil by God and His Word; why we find humor in it is, in my opinion, caused by two things.
1. We're human. We are born into sin, and while we should be allowing the Holy Spirit to continually work in us to change us from the inside out, we won't be perfect until we get to Heaven.
2. We're numb. Think about it: from 1930 – 1960, Universal released what would become the classics of horror. Those movies (Dracula, Frankenstein, Wolfman, Creature From the Black Lagoon, etc.) scared people just as much as horror movies do today. But their wasn't any blood, sex, nudity or cursing. Today, people are shocked if they see a horror movie that doesn't have at least one decapitation, buckets of blood, 3 sex scenes, etc. We've become numb.
Another example is the news. When my mother was a child, the only way to see a war was to go to war. Now we can turn on CNN or Fox News and watch reports from the battles.
But I know how you feel. I had a friend who was offended by Family Guy and how they've gotten worse and worse in mocking God, yet he laughed at me when I walked out of the room during a movie we were watching because there was a nude scene.
What is the appearance of Evil? Test EVERYTHING! Does that mean we should only test the things that Preachers and Christians say? Or does it mean by everything as test everything? KJV uses abstain from all appearances of evil and the message says, throw out everything tainted with evil! James 4:4, the world in this since is anything not of God! (Reference to an old post of yours) we are in this “world” but not a part of this “world”, John 17:14-15. We have to protect them from the EVIL one which means we have to go into the “world”, to reach them and show them the light. To bring them out of darkness and teach them the teachings of Christ. Matthew 28:18-20
I think you nailed it – test everything. There is much that the Bible is open on, it's the church, and sometimes even culture, that has deemed something evil.
I know we disagree on our speech but I agree with you on the movies issues, even more so here recently! Though I personally feel it can have the same effect on impressionable people, those who are still babies/children in Christ and can wreak the same havoc in their life as advertising co marketing kids to watch shows that corrupt their innocence and creating struggles for lust of the eyes and flesh. Not all Christians are eating meat as you and I, we have to be considerate of those who are still impressionable, people don’t get saved and begin eating meat.
I agree, but again, this goes back to what the church is teaching. I recently visited a church where I got very little meat from the sermon. It was mostly a lot of screaming and a couple of rules. If someone is going to a church like that, they're going to be a spiritual baby for a long time. But if they go somewhere like a Four Points, or Mars Hill, or NewSpring, they won't be a baby long. Those are churches that not only believe in the open hand/closed hand lifestyle approach, but they constantly reference it in messages.
I have been recently been facing the literalness of the word of God, how some can read it and say it is literal but compromise aspects that are black and white by using the, well I am not convicted approach. The bible tells me any man who does not follow the commands of Christ, which are not His but His Father in Heaven are not of the light but rather of darkness! Basically Lazy Christianity, Gluttonous Christianity, is not Christianity!
Agreed. But, that goes back to that church I visited (it was a UPC in Ruston). They proclaim the Bible to be the literal Word of God, yet they pick and choose scriptures to support their beliefs and doctrine. For example; they preach that baptism in water and the Holy Spirit are required for salvation and their basis is John 3:5, where Jesus told Nicodemus no one can enter the Kingdom of God unless he is born of water and spirit. Of course, most theologians agree that born of water means humans (because most births back then were water births) and born of spirit means to be "born again" spiritually.
But don't tell the UPC that; they'll get mad
Don't get me started on them…it is close to a cult as a misinterpreting of scripture. They believe in oneness, speaking in tongues in Jesus name only to be saved! Most have to seek permission from pastor to do things, yes they take scripture way out of context…filled full of legalism! There outreach is almost a hate message and missing compassion and love. Use to visit one for a while caused so much confusion for me when I was younger in Christ. Sent from my BlackBerry
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I should clarify things a bit.
The idea for this post came from a post Ed Young made on his blog, where he talked about pastors using slang from the stage. He asked, "should a pastor say, for example, stinks, instead of sucks?"
My take on things is that many in the church have forgotten why most churches have a childrens department. Yes, it's so that children can be presented the message of the Bible in a way that is engaging, informative and memorable. But it is also because the adults need the same thing. When you refrain from talking about sex openly (both good and sinful sex) because the seven year old mommy's boy in the fifth row doesn't need to hear about sex yet, you've just watered down the message. Same goes for language. Mark Driscoll once preached a sermon where he referenced Isaiah 64:6, which says "our righteousness is like filthy rags". Driscoll could have left it at that; but he knew that everyone had heard that scripture dozens of times and wouldn't really be impacted. So he went to the original Hebrew text which says "We are all like one who is unclean, all our so-called righteous acts are like a menstrual rag in your sight."
Pretty graphic. But it drove the point home. However, try that in many churches and you'll have angry parents, because their kids aren't where they're supposed to be.